
crossposted at BlackAndMarriedWithKids.com
We all know the first part of the bible verse, Proverbs 13:24.
"He who spares the rod hates his son,..."
But do we pay any attention to the other half?
"...but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."
My son just passed that magical age of 20 months, which for all intents and purposes means he's in the throes of early onset Terrible Twos. Everything in the house is fair game to get chewed on, thrown under the couch, or doused with apple juice. Remote controls mysteriously go missing for days on end. Food is tossed. Food is intentionally regurgitated. Food reappears in mysterious places. And of course, as first time parents, we eat all this up and happily snap pictures to embarrass him with someday.
That said, there are those (increasingly more frequent) times when the young fella's natural enthusiasm and wonderment with his growing awareness of the world grates on your next-to-last nerve. He climbs on things he shouldn't. He doesn't fall asleep when he should. He pretends not to hear you, even when you've called him for the umpteenth time. And this is when we as parents are faced with a common dilemma: To Spank, Or Not To Spank.
That is the question, and I'll freely admit I don't always have the answers.
Old-school parents will tell you you've gotta pull out a switch every now and then to keep order in the house. That's how my parents, and most of the other parents in the Southern neighborhood I grew up in did it, at least. Generally, Mom was the day-to-day, multipurpose disciplinarian. She'd bark out orders, dole out punishments, and occasionally fry some legs if the situation warranted. But when things were really severe, she called in the Big Gun, aka: Daddy. After a long day at work, the last thing my Pops wanted was to have to lay hands on some unruly kids. Thankfully, this only happened a handful of times, but I remember them so well today that my butt still stings. The combination of both parents (as well as grandparents) and their contrasting styles of ass-whoppin' worked. My two brothers and I, by all accounts, turned out just fine.
But like most other remnants of the past that we tend to over-romanticize, I don't know if this brand of discipline is best suited for today's climate and today's kids. What used to constitute normal discipline would probably warrant a visit from CPS nowadays. Whites are often criticized for such laissez-faire tactics as "timeouts". Many will argue that this approach leads to kids who don't respect parental authority, talk extra greasy to their Moms in the grocery store, and eventually go on to become serial killers. Then again, the "switches and stension' cords" model of black discipline ain't exactly perfect either, as evidenced by the 8,000 or so black people who die, primarily at the hands of other blacks each year. You could argue that this suppression of anger, as opposed to giving an explanation of what was done wrong and an appropriate punishment, is somewhere at the root of this violence.
Before I was married and had my own kid, I pretty much agreed with the whole "spare the rod" bit. If it worked for me and my brothers, why would I do anything different with my own child? But like many other things that come with having your own family, I've since become really familiar with the phrase "never say never".
My wife and I use various tactics to keep our child in line, including punishment by loss of privileges, raising our voices in instruction (not anger), and yes, even the much picked-on "timeouts", which surprise, actually do work. Do we sometimes have to call in the Big Gun and "fry some legs"? Yes, but this is always a last resort, and for that matter, hardly a regular occurrence.
Only time will tell whether our method of discipline "works" by whatever terms you choose to define that word. But since we're talking, I figure I'll ask you guys.
Question: What forms of discipline do you typically employ to keep your children in line? What sorts of things will you not do? Have you found that certain types of discipline do not work?
Tuesday, April 22, 2008
Spare The Rod... Or Beat The Child Into Submission?!?
Tags Popped: Bloggy Style, Raise Your Own Damn Kids
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9 AverageComments™:
***NOTICE: I do NOT have kids***
Just wanted to say that today's kids are exactly the same as all previous kids as they are small, not yet culturally tutored human beings.
I think (and the preceeding Notice should be remembered) that spanking is perfectly acceptable during a very hazy period, which begins when the child has become aware that there are appropriate and inappropriate behaviors, but is still entirely emotionally reactive and begins to end when the child has reached the age when he/she begins to understand the concept of responsibility. The actual end would come when a parent of good judgment understands that other kinds of punishment are in order (grounding, taking away privleges, etc.)
Spanking an infant makes absolutely no sense to me as the kid has not matured enough to even comprehend cause and effect. Corporeally punishing a teenager makes little sense as, by that point, they damn well should have come to an understanding of appropriate behavior long, long before then and if they are that out of hand, I'm not really sure anything anyone does will make much difference.
Proper judgment of when to start, when to stop and when, during that period, it is appropriate is hard. Being that parent of good judgment is a hard thing to be because gaining good judgment requires some hard thinking and the awareness that one can be wrong.
Hey, I grew up getting spankings. I don't see the problem, as long as it doesn't get out of hand and out of control. Does smacking your child's hand to keep them from sticking something into the wall outlet work.. absolutely!! Remember as toddlers their attention span is pretty much non existent..will they remember the timeout or will they think twice knowing what will happen if they do. My vote is for the latter.
My mom didn't believe in putting delicate items on the top shelf so it wouldn't get broken etc.. I knew not to touch it after the first hand smack and "the look".
As a mom of a 17 year old, my son was spanked when he was younger. Timeout didn't work for me.. if I put him in a corner ..he would sit/stand there and play with his fingers and rock in the chair anything to not sit still.. it was not always effective for me.
Just an observation, have you noticed the behavior of SOME white kids/white parents in public? the kids run the show.. now let's move on to black kids/black parents... how often do you see that behavior out in public? All my mom had to do was give me "the look" and whatever I was doing would stop. I knew what was coming next.
I'm not saying that toddlers/children should be spanked at every little incident, but when you want them to know you mean business..nothing wrong with a little swat on the behind or legs. I'm just sayin...
I had to use different tactics at different times, when they were younger we did the time out and deny privileges, (they loved video games) when they got older the punishments had to be stiffer, they knew the consequences of their actions and stayed out of trouble most of the time, now the the teenage years are challenging, were talking to the youngest alot !!!! I let my husband deal with him, and trust me he wants to beat him into submission sometimes, we talk to him, let him know the kind of treatment he will get from the cops and courts. Last week his friend was put out of his home, it was something strange to my son, he see that some parents will not put up with some of their children's %#$@$, it was a long conversation last Thursday, you should see some of the changes that has happened. Im going to see how long this will last.
As a mother of an extremely intelligent preteen female, I have to say that spanking works, but only when used sparingly. I do a serious amount of babysitting and I'm not down with spanking other people's kids. With most children, just about any age being forced to sit still or be in a room alone is torture, so that's my first resort. Kind of like ,"oh, so you don't want to listen? Well, you just sit your bottom down right here next to me and don't move." "Oh so you want to cry for no reason? That's fine too, you go in that room right there and cry your little heart out and when you feel like you can behave enough to be around people come back but leave the tears and theatrics in the room." I am a firm believer in spanking but only after all other options have been exhausted. My daughter knows that she gets 3 strikes the first 2 are loss of privileges and an accompanied by a lecture. The last one is me getting that butt also accompanied by a lecture. It's more about consistency than anything else, if you say you're going to do something, do it... EVERY time. Don't let things slide sometimes and then others spank for them, that's confusing to the child and it hinders their learning of right and wrong. I don't claim to be an expert but most of this is common sense if you've been around enough children.
Hey, AverageBro. Found this site via your insightful, albeit not very popular ;-), comments on the Damon Wayans issue over at WhatAboutOurDaughters. (FYI, my kneejerk reaction was to disagree with you, but ultimately I had to agree. Thanks for the food for thought.).
Anyhoo...my daughters are 4 and 9, and have never been spanked. Too many people equate discipline with spanking, and think that if you don't spank, you don't discipline. Not true. There are many ways to discipline; spanking is just one.
I wrote a column about black folks and spanking a while back that you may find of interest:
http://www.literarymama.com/columns/thegirlismine/archives/001238.html
Thanks for raising the issue.
~Deesha
Whup his azz, point blank!!! It works.
OK, here are my own suggestions, from dealing with my three toddlers (now ages 12, 10, 8) and reading everything I could find in search of some way to save us from 7 straight years of terrible twos. This is long, but don't be deterred! It's a fast read.
First, remove false choices. Particularly with toddlers, parents seek harmony automatically, and so they often ask rhetorical questions when there is no possibility that the toddles answer will affect the outcome. "We're going to the store now, OK?" is bad. You don't really care whether it's OK with the child... you're going to the store regardless. This is a false question, and it teaches him that sometimes you ask his opinion then ignore him, which means that NO is sometimes meaningless, which causes him to try the same stuff on you that you try on him... i.e. ignoring you when you say no. Also, he's starting to be independent at this age, and with that comes defiance just for the sake of being contrary. Removing the false question removes some opportunity to be contrary.
This habit is really hard to break! Most people aren't used to giving non-negotiable orders, even to a toddler. They have to train themselves to make statements instead of asking questions. Climb in the car, we're going to the store!
When a choice is possible, limit the options. What do you want to drink? is sure to get a list of responses for things you don't have or the toddler isn't allowed to drink. Instead offer options: Do you want milk or orange juice? Giving the toddler two choices is much better than an open-ended question... he may have something in mind for dinner that you bought him at a restaurant a month ago, except right now you're at home! Not only is he unable to accurately describe this meal he remembers, he probably can't tell you where he got it or when. Frustration and disobedience will ensue. Instead, offer him a choice of two or three things you can make.
Be consistent. Whether or not you spank, make sure that both you and AverageWife do it, for the same reasons, all the time. Consistency is absolutely the most critical part of discipline. Your son is a little scientist... all kids are to some extent. He's engaged in a huge experiment, it encompasses his entire waking life. He's trying to figure out how the planet works, and most importantly how you and the wife work. You're pretty much his entire world! So he's going to test. Oranges in the couch make daddy yell! I wonder if applesauce in the couch makes him yell? Peas? His wallet? Why doesn't mommy yell about the oranges? I wonder what will make her react this way... aha, swallowing pennies does it. Dad, look! Swallowing pennies makes mom yell... holy crap, Dad laughs when I do that!
The only way to discover the answers is to experiment.. i.e. get in trouble. :) He's engaging in simple stimulus-response feedback loops that will gradually get more and more complex as he understands how you and the wife react to him, and what the consequences of various actions are.
So. If you're consistent, he will experiment much much much less. The same things get the same response, time and again... it gives him confidence because he can more easily grasp the parameters of his world. Of course he's still going to test, but it won't be anything like the absolute flood of pushing boundaries that you'll get if you're not consistent. This requires some pre-planning between you and the wife, so you're on the same page here. If you go different directions, you're sure to see the toddler try every bad thing at least three times... once each for individual parent and once when you're together. You'll see him do the stuff you disagree on much more often because he gets more feedback that way... disagreement on punishment between you and your wife teach him lots of things (both good and bad).
Finally, pick your battles. Sit down with AverageWife and decide what stuff you care about. Discipline and consistency don't have to mean rigid lockdown - if you don't care about jumping on furniture, great! As long as you agree on it. Whenever you're willing, remove temptation rather than creating rules. It's better for your sanity to put the crystal in a box for the next 2 years than to spend the next 2 years telling AverageToddler not to touch the crystal three times a day. He's only two-ish... you're teaching him self control (it doesn't come pre-installed) and crystal is really, really sparkly. :) So figure out the behaviors you won't tolerate, decide on a course of action, remove temptations, and don't sweat the rest. When you give yourself permission not to discipline some behaviors, you can save your energy for the stuff that you really do find unacceptable... and your discipline will be more potent for the decrease in frequency.
To sum up: Remove the false choices... don't ask the toddler unless his answer actually matters. Be consistent... the same rule breaking gets the same punishment, from either parent, every single time. Pick your battles... put your heads together, enforce the rules you really care about, and to hell with the petty stuff.
It won't create a perfectly harmonious house, but these three steps will reduce the pointless repetition of the same old battles, and save you both some serious headaches.
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As for the spanking question, it's been different for all three of ours. One child, her brain reset button was apparently installed on her butt, and a single swat re-oriented her brain like 30 minutes of lecture never would. Our options were: a) 15-30 minute explanation, time out, and a repeat performance tomorrow, or b) pop on the rear, 2 minute explanation, problem solved. One of the other two was emotionally crushed by a spanking; it was much much more serious a punishment than with the girl, and happened very rarely once we learned this. The third one was sort of the most traditional... he got it very rarely, but it functioned as the ultimate "oh crap, I'm doomed now" threat.
I hope that helps you out some! Good luck, the next couple of years are a bit of a challenge...
Spool,
I have to say that your response was the best! I do not have kids, so I'm making that clear right away. But I grew up getting spankings. They did nothing for my brother and I but made us both rebellious and resentful towards our parents.
In fact, I could say that since we didn't stop getting spankings until we were late in our teens(way too late in my opinion), we probably hated our parents for a long time.
Now both him and my other brother (who rarely got spankings) both have kids, and they rarely spank their kids. I never spank my nieces. I just don't see the point.
But I'm not a fan of parent as friend. However, I've found as the aunt (a whole other distinction in kids lives, I know) I just give them the "i'm disappointed" look and they straighten up right away. I know they will test me one day but I can't see me putting my hands on them.
Thanks for your advice though I have copied and pasted your advice and saved it for future reference just in case I have to discipline my nieces or I have crumbsnatchers of my own.
Spanking is an appropriate form of discipline when children are young, 2 - 7 years of age. A spanking is not the same as a beating - only use the back of your hand, not an extension cord, belt, belt buckle or a tree switch w/ the bark peeled off. After about 7, time out, early bedtime and loss of privileges works better. And believe me, sometimes you do everything right, and they still make bad choices when older (my kids are 19 & 15 & I have the gray hairs to prove it).
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